Star Trek

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Star Trek

New postby Greg Wendt » Mon Jul 05, 2004 3:44 pm

A thought occured to me now that Mark has joined in, I realize its been 20 years since all of us have hung out and talked Trek. When we all took off there was just the OS and the first 3 movies. So now I'm kinda curious how everyone ranks the later series.

My thoughts:

Deep Space Nine: by far my favorite, great characters and relationships, lots of exploration of the political structure of the Federation. One of my favorite scenes is in Trials And Tribble-ations, when Sisko is being interrogated by Starfleet's Temporal Investigation agents and they say they really hate Kirk.

Next Generation: Might've been in first place if it wasn't for the slow first 2 seasons and the temporary replacement of Dr Crusher with Pulaski. Oh, and Wesley was @#$%#%$

Voyager: So-so during the first couple of season, tho I never quite like Janeway. Script quality went downhill after Kes was replaced by Seven of 36-24-36

Enterprise: :evil: This show gets more painful with every episode. Waiting for Al to show up and help Sam/Archer leap out.

So what are your thoughts?

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New postby Jeff » Mon Jul 05, 2004 9:39 pm

Okay, My Thoughts, generalized, on the series.

TNG:
Loved it. Own the first 4 seasons on DVD and will own all 7.
Yes, the first 2 seasons were abit slow, but they steadily picked up.
The third season was great, thanks again Bill & Bud, and the cliff
hanger into the 4th season both pissed me off and created a quote of mine.

DS9:
Luke warm to chilly.
Got really tired of the the politics and was amazed at the changes
this series had on the Franchise.
It was enjoyable, but timed badly for my viewing here in Phoenix.
I think I've seen about 1/2 of the episodes.

Voyager:
Loved Janeway.
Loved 7 of 9.
Ending was bad. They had just started to write interesting stories consistently when boom, the 7 year itch hit.

Enterprise:
Good concept.
Some very interesting stories.
Loved the continuity of the 3rd season, but to quote George:
Waiting for Al to show up and help Sam/Archer leap out.


Switch AL for the Temporal Star Fleet officer from the future and I am getting tired of the "timeline must be perserved" crap.

What's everyone else think?
BIll?
Bob?
Bud?
Lyle?
Mark?
Anal Jeff does Alphabetical list.
Jeff
It's a great day to be with my wife,
my friends and alive on my planet!

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New postby LyleAustin » Tue Jul 06, 2004 12:38 am

I'm getting tired about all the Time Travel stories. It was bad enough in Voyager, but now in Enterprise it's getting rediculous. I think the writers are trying to latch on to it as a writing gimick too often.

If they want to do Time Travel, have a series based on the Timeship Enterprise. Then they can bring in whoever they want from the previous series. (Except for DeForest Kelly)

ST: TOS Kirk talked a good game about brotherhood between species; but when push came to shove, he was just a Xenophobic Bigot. (Who Mourns for Adonis)

ST: TNG "Q" was the best thing to happen to the show.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you oughtta go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q (Q Who?)


ST: DS9 Probably the best of them all. My favorite was the Love/Hate relationship between Odo and Quark.

ST: V I thought the ending was awfully "Deus Ex Machina"

ST: E Damn it, I want more cowboys. I want more meddling in other planets affairs. This was before the Prime Directive. And knock off with all the Time Travel crap.

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New postby Bud » Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:15 pm

Oh... boy are we geek central. :wink:

Trek Clasic: Gotta agree with Lyle here, but Kirk WAS the original space cowboy.

TNG: Liked it well enough... Liked Picard... couldn't stand Riker... The Borg kicked ass, but again I've gotta' agree with Lyle Q was the best.

DS9: B O O R I N G ! Watched like 3 episodes.

Voyager: Can you saw "lost in space"? Say maybe 2 episodes. Couldn't care about the ending. Gotta' put in a good word for 7-of-9 though.

Enterprise: Have watched quite a bit of it and enjoyed it (and especially T'pol) until the time travel crap started. (Damn it , where's my puking smiley when I need it?) Listen people, nobody can write time-travel stories. They never work. Give it up.

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New postby Greg Wendt » Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:52 pm

beg to differ on time travel stories, they are either excellent or really bad:

The Excellent:
OS:City On The Edge Of Forever (natch)
Return To Tomorrow (the original oops)
The Voyage Home (there be whales)
TAS: Yesteryear (Spock mentors Spock)
TNG: First Contact (Die Hard With Worf)
DS9: Trials And Tribble-ations (That's a Klingon? Why do they look so different? Worf:We...don't talk about it)

Mediocre:
OS: Assignment Earth (WOW,we're back in the sixties and everyones wearing Starfleet regulation gogoboots)
TNG: Time's Arrow (look I found Data's head....PUNT)

Bad:
Voy: Future's End (and the villain is.....Bill Gates!!!!)
Enterprise: The Whole friggin Temporal Cold War AAAARRRGGHH!

As far as 7 of 9, I still resent from a story viewpoint that they abandoned the Kes storyline in favor of Data-with-boobs. It would have been far more interesting if they had stuck with the original plan for Kes and have her age to a geriatric and live just long enough to reach the Alpha Quadrant.

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New postby Guest » Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:17 pm

Jeff again, Firewall won't let me log on.

Data-with-boobs


LMFAO!

Oh... boy are we geek central


Like this was news!

Q was a great villian and his appearence in Voyager was usually entertaining.

His appearence in DS9 was a waste of time.

Cowboys in space? What a great idea!
Hold it, wasn't that the idea behind the original series?

Of the movies, I'd rank them:

1. The Wrath of Khan. (Oh my god Spock is dead!)
2. The Search for Spock( Spock's Back, Whew! Mr Scott Sabatour)
3. First Contact (BORG!!)
4. Insurrection (Just a fun movie.)
5. The Voyage Home (Another Fun Movie.)
6. Nemisis ( Good, but missing something.)
7. Generations (Yeah Kirk is dead, Deserved it 4 Directing Search 4God)
8. Star Trek I ( Yeah! Bald Naked Woman!)
9. The Undiscovered Country (Sulu in command!)
10. The Search for God or what ever the **** Star Trek 5 was called.
Released as an insult on my Birthday!

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New postby Greg Wendt » Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:28 pm

Hmmm
Movies
Wrath Of Khan (damn near perfect)
Voyage Home (everybody remember where we parked)
First Contact
Search For Spock
Insurrection (glad someone else liked it too, its very underrated)
Undiscovered Country (hint Gorkon=Gorbachev, a little too obvious)


Generations
The Motion Picture (directors cut is better but it is still sooooooo sloooooow)













Nemesis
The Search For Shatner's Intelligence (if you recall Jeff I fell asleep halfway through it)
Last edited by Greg Wendt on Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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New postby LyleAustin » Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:59 am

I am very sad to report the following information that I read on the Washington Post website

Sadly, James M. Doohan, known as Scotty -- as in "Beam me up, Scotty" in "Star Trek" -- has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease, his agent confirmed yesterday. Doohan, 84, has a 4-year-old daughter and two sons with his wife, Wende, and four older children from a previous marriage.


:cry:
Last edited by LyleAustin on Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hee hee

New postby BOB » Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:00 pm

TOS - 4 stars, effects to rival Dr Who :)
TNG - 3.5 stars (would be more except for Troi and W. Crusher)
V - 1 star (He its SF and good effects, but the writers were AWOL)
E - 1.5 stars

DS9, well, uh, er. Apparently, JMS pitched B5 to Trek's studio and or
people PRIOR to DS9. Now, they claim they had their own show in
development at the time, but it sure looks like the lifted a bunch of
stuff for their own. Well, I understand thats typical of hollywood, so
there is no suprise there. Anyway, its clear (at the time) the trek
people realy didn't like the competition.

TOS gets a pass (not that it needs much of one) given its age, but
TNG+DS9+V+E taken at their best doesn't hold a candle to B5 at
its best. B5 was actually a SF/SciFi series not just a comedy/drama
set in the future. The later is the kind of krap you normally get out
of the tv studios (can you say buck rogers in the 21st century). B5
was a different animal and rather well done. Its sad, but it may be
a long time before we see aother SF series of that quality. Until then
the best we can hope for is exploding ships and women in skimpy
cloths (hey, how can you go wrong with that).

Anyway, I would much rather watch SG1 and B5/Ranger reruns than
Trek reruns (mostly because I've seen TOS so many times).

Its nice that the restored the TOS episodes for DvD (as I understand it),
theve been chopped up over the years to make time for more ads.

Now, Dr. Who theres a franchise. Your lead actor gets upity fire them.
You can run thru a dozen before you need to insert a plot device to
explain the change :) Now, if they can produce the new ones (and they
are) with the same effects as the last movie without the bad writing, they
may have something.

Later, I've rambled enough.
Bob

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New postby Greg Wendt » Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:25 pm

Yes I agree that in its relativity short existence B5 did equal and at times surpass Trek in quality. But the DS9 vs B5 argument is moot now that both series have completed their runs. I find them both interesting yet very different explorations of the same idea. Very much like when DC comics ripped off EE Doc Smith's Lensman series to create the Green Lantern Corps.

What makes B5 work is the singular vision of JMS in the universe he created and controlled. He had the whole thing plotted out but wasn't afraid to take a detour when the story demanded it. (Particularly replacing Sinclair with Sheridan when it became obvious that Sinclair's conversion from war hero to peace-builder wouldn't be as dramatic since his character starts off already halfway there. So JMS turned him into Valen and brought in Sheridan as a real hawk)

Trek however is at its worst when it falls under the control of too firm of a producer. Roddenberry created a great premise but the OS really didn't take off till he loosened up and let writers like Gene Coon and Dorothy Fontana create Klingons, Khan, etc.

TMP was pure Roddenberry Trek and as a result, while being very thought provoking, is very dull as drama. The best OS movies (II,IV&VI) were under the guidance of Nick Meyer, a Trek outsider but a great writer.

TNG suffered the same syndrome till the 3rd season when Roddenberry backed off and let the writers mix things up a bit.

The big split in ST came inbetween TNG and Voyager. Half the regular writers (like Rene Echevarria, Robert Wolfe, Michael Piller) had moved over to DS9. The other half, particularly Brannon Braga, went to Voyager. Looking back at my favorite TNG episode they were mostly written by the DS9 group, while some of theworst ones were written by Braga (The Game is in my opinion one of the worst episodes ever, to quote CBG).

After DS9, most of those writers left Trek. Ron Moore did the new Galactica, Piller's doing The Dead Zone, etc.

After Voyager, Grand Pooh-bah Berman elevated Braga to EP and let him create Enterprise. Enterprise needs to loosen up, get away from Braga's grand concept and hire some good writers

One suggestion: Peter David, he has written some of the best Trek novels (Q Sqaured, Imzadi), several B5 novels, made the Hulk fun again in the 90's and has generally made a career out of taking old and tired franchises and making them hum again.

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New postby Greg Wendt » Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:29 pm

See, now this is the kind of debate I've been missing :twisted:

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New postby MarkS » Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:22 pm

Now now gentelmen, put down the Phase rifles. Any and all sci fi is good. Some just done better than others. All treks have fine points to them, although DS9 did get bogged down in political shit. I agree tos was cowboys in space, (did I hear someone say "Firefly") but in my humble opinion it was more like, first platoon on the scene. Go in see what can be pillaged give small refuse to the needy and then start shooting.
The main difference between original and the also rans, the politics of the times. Kirks free love then shoot the hell out of the soviet,,,,, I mean bad guys, and picards PC. I really hate to say this (being I have a delta tattooed on my chest) At this writting , baring the original series, the best is enterprise. As long as thay can stop with the fucking time travel shit. Stay with cronilocigal stories. Leave the Freangi and the Borg out of it.
But just as a side note ,7 of 9, I wanna put something in that cyborg. :twisted:

Still and all, the water is only as pure as the sorce, that would be the original trek. If that was not great then none of the others would be worthe shit. Just a thought, what could thay have done then with the budget and fan base that trek has now? Just a thought. For me the best entertainment is the odd numberd movies. I like seeing the aging crew. makes me feel young.

PS. B5 blows chuncks. Such a hack of a show, slow writting bad effects no development.
Throw me a blanket, I wannna be a DR. Who monster. (I really do like that show)
SC1 is a good way to spend an hour.

and the raining king of all

FARSCAPE

Its a shame to hear about Scotty (shudda been shatner)
PPS for all of you who knows who the names of the writers and the names of all the episodes, AND who produced what, STOP IT JUST STOP IT. No wonder you cant get a women. :wink:

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New postby Bud » Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:32 pm

did I hear someone say "Firefly"


I didn't say it, but I must have been thinking it loudly. :lol: We have the DVDs. 8)

Farscape was very cool (I have the first season of that on DVD too), but "raining king of all" I'm not so sure. I'd be tempted to vote for Stargate: SG1.

B5 blows chuncks. Such a hack of a show, slow writting bad effects no development.

<sarcasm>Don' t forget some of the acting was a little questionable too.</sarcasm>
:P <flips Mark the finger> :P
I liked B5, a little too "spiritual" for my tastes, but very well thought out.

for all of you who knows who the names of the writers and the names of all the episodes, AND who produced what, STOP IT JUST STOP IT.


:rofl:


:cry: Bummer about Scotty. Hero to engineers everywhere. :cry:

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New postby Bud » Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:49 pm

Any and all sci fi is good. Some just done better than others.


I'd have to say this a different way. Some SciFi is V E R Y bad. Sometimes, that's the reason I love it. It's easy to love a good story, regardless of the genre. But, you can really tell what genre makes up your entertainment "roots" when you enjoy the bad stories.

:D

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New postby Greg Wendt » Wed Jul 07, 2004 7:05 pm

Don't get me wrong, i do like Enterprise (again when not doing the Time Travel shite) and Voyager, just to alesser dgree than the others. The other shows mentioned are all in the A list of recent SFTV (God, at least no one mentioned Earth: Final Conflict or Andromeda :nausea: )

But I will continue to defend DS9. The political "shit" is what really engaged me (same as in B5, natch). Guess it's inevitable given my genes. I mean, now I watch almost as much Fox News as old SF :D

(really looking forward to SG: Atlantis and Peacekeeper War)

But Mark does bring up a point (haven't we told him to stop doing that in public), for pure fun in entertainment, the Doctor is #1.

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